Extortion on Ebay
Posted by Leenda on September 7, 2007
Anyone else noticed that sellers on Ebay are now making your feedback contingent on whether or not you leave them positive feedback first? I’m sorry, but as buyers, we’re already the ones taking the biggest risk first by sending some stranger money for an item that we have not received, and the only proof we have that we’ll actually get what we’re supposed to get is that they haven’t yet cheated too many other people. Our reward for taking that risk first should be that once we’ve completed our end of the bargain (i.e. paid for our purchase within the seller’s guidelines) we should receive positive feedback. It should not matter whether we ultimately leave positive feedback, negative feedback, or neutral feedback for the seller. We did our part, and therefore we deserve our feedback.
Some cutting edge sellers have finally realized that if they provide bad service, they get poor feedback for it. (duh!) So instead of leaving their buyers feedback upon receipt of payment (like they should) they wait until after they receive positive feedback from the buyer. This is in effect rendering the Ebay feedback system completely useless because now the buyers are afraid that they’ll get bad feedback in retaliation for justified bad feedback to the seller, even if they paid immediately upon winning the auction and within the payment guidelines of that seller.
Well I don’t know about you, but I personally am sick of this. I have a feedback rating of at least 75 (I know this because I got a star from Ebay upon receiving my 75th transaction rating) and I am happy with that. In my entire time as a Ebayer (primarily as a buyer but occasionally as a seller) I have received only 1 negative, and that was due to some miscommunication and a misunderstanding between me and the seller. She later regretted giving me negative feedback, but alas there is nothing that can be done about it now. So, being secure in my lovely 75+ transactions, 99.99% positive rating, I have decided to stop leaving feedback for sellers who try to, in effect, blackmail me into leaving them positive feedback. So, every time I get an email or paypal slip from a seller indicating that they will leave me positive feedback only once they have received the same from me, I am not only not going to leave them feedback of any variety, but also going to send them the message below:
“Hi. I received all of the items, and am very happy with them and with your service. However, I am opposed in principle to sellers who refuse to leave me feedback until I have left them feedback. This is unfair since I will have already completed my part of the transaction long before the items are ever shipped. As such my feedback should be based entirely on that fact, not on whether I rate you for also completing your obligations correctly. As such, I never leave feedback for people who require me to first leave their feedback because they are in effect trying to extort a positive feedback listing from me. I am secure enough in my 76 positive feedback listing to not need to give in to this extortion, and therefore do not participate in this practice. I just wanted to let you know why I will not be leaving feedback of any variety for you, which is a shame since I was thrilled with your products and would have been happy to leave you a glowing recommendation. Thank you and have a nice day.”
I also plan to do some research in the Ebay community to see if they have plans to do something about this. (for instance, not allowing the seller to use the paypal shipping system for items that they have not yet left feedback for, etc.) and if not, then I’m going to raise a serious stink about it. I do not take lightly to extortion!
Ok. Stepping down from my soapbox now…
Texas Gifts said
It sounds like ebay sales have become a tangled web, I always heard of people being able to actually buy reputation points. I prefer to list and buy from craigslist. Great post, thanks for the info.
tamy said
I agree, I agree, I agree!
I love and am going to use your message back if that is OK with you
Nothing wrong with you standing on that soapbox at all!!
Great work!
Sade said
I agree that the eBay feedback system leaves alot to be desired. Sellers can complain about feedback extortion as well. Since I, as a seller, am responsible for the product until it has reached my buyer, the transaction isn’t completed until my buyer acknowledges receipt of item and is happy with their purchase.
Dawn said
YES! Thank you very much! I have found this to be a most rediculous system, and agree with everything you just said. Thank God etsy has not yet turned into this wicked image driven sort of thing. And hey, it’s your blog, if you can’t stand on the soapbox once in awhile…
Annie said
YES. I posted this same point of view on their boards and the ebay folks disguised as average sellers or the actual sellers who practice extortion beat the heck out of me for pointing this out even after I provided links to the actual LAW.
Yes it is extortion. They get you to voluntarily do something by withholding something from you. That is what extortion is plain & simple.
And here is the happy lie repeated below –
He knows darn well he is withholding feedback and manipulating/extorting the buyer into providing it first. What else do you rate a buyer on other than paying — nothing… Folks like that don’t care about the law and can twist anything in their heads. And you wonder how people do the gross things that they do in life — it’s called denial and that was a fine example of lying to oneself if I ever saw one…
Like they guy who tells you the other women he is sleepying with is a friend. I bet that seller has told that one too… But she is my friend. Lie lie lie…
jake said
As a former seller I can tell you that this feedback “extortion” was the only bone I had as a seller. I have had buyers, 4 months after I shipped, tell me they did not get the item…they waited 4 months to tell me & I had already left + feedback. As I have done many times I refunded in full, losing all my fees and making it impossible to have the commission refunded. This was a >$100 item. I have never understood why the buyer had to pay for insurance. Items over $50 I took out insurance, under $50 I self insured. If the item goes astray the buyer wants the refund right away, meanwhile the PO takes months to decide. If the item is broken during shipping the PO will say I did not pack it right; I still am going to refund the buyer. If the item is broken the buyer has to fill out the PO form for the refund. After I have mailed their refund out of my pocket, they are to busy to file and so I get stuck. People also will tell me after receiving the item, that this isn’t really what they wanted, so I refund; sometimes it gets lost in the mail when they send it back…after they have their refund. For the most part people are incredibly honest, but you always have a few ringers and it seemed like it was the cost of doing business. As more people became sellers the market became tighter and there was a decline in return on investment but EBay without fail raised fees. Selling political memorabilia, rare books & papers, stamps, or coins and you have experts from the respective associations looking over your shoulder and rendering their opinions on whether it is a plate 4 or1 variation with the difference being a $1. If I guess wrong I lose customers, fees. What is really interesting is to go to some of these clubs meetings (what can I say I like going from room to room in a hotel buying Socialist presidential candidates pinbacks) only to hear an expert tell about how the price was driven down online so they got a steal. When I asked EBay if I had a question on an item could I submit the item for review before posting, they said nope we are not that kind of business. So if I make a mistake and the item is worth a 1000X what I list and the buyer snags it at a bargain I lose; but if the item I have is worth less than what I think it is I get to lose again. I am very, very conservative in grading; I want people to be pleased with what they won. Now, I not only have to pass muster with my customer, but EBay and then an expert as well. When EBay first started years ago it was a real treasure hunt, crushing the business of the local antique shops. EBay is just a business now. Recently EBay instituted the secret star feedback system one in which I am graded in 5 areas by my customers and after receiving 10 reviews I am graded, it only takes 1 bad mark to really bring you down and this is especially true if you are not selling a lot of items. One would think that seller would have the same benefit, no way. Arguing that it is secret and fair is to no avail. Systems were no one knows who left what is a good system, right? Not for me I am told. Wait a minute EBay; I am paying the bill I am taking the photos, writing the descriptions why am I left out? Digging at auctions, ads, book sales, antique shops, flea markets, tag sales to find one of a kind, really interesting items. Following up I researched my stuff and gave a ton of history and meaning to the item I was selling. Being more than generous I put it all in the description. Some of the information took months to put together but I thought it was really cool to share with someone who could appreciate it (sometimes a buyer, others just interested)afterwards if they had more questions I went out of my way to help them. When it came time to pack it, I bombed proofed it always losing money doing so. I would go out on Sunday to the local motorcycle dealer to get really prime shipping containers out of the dumpsters. Here I am an old guy looking through the dumpster with my cane, then having to explain to an incredulous policeman why the packages were so good. I ALWAzYS lost money on shipping, people just have no understanding how expensive and time consuming it is to ship. As a final note of irony, people always give you less than perfect marks for shipping, I mean always. I mistakenly thought those who bought from me were my customers not EBay’s, wrong. This all falls on deaf ears. I warned EBay that I had a better return and found it easier to sell through the Stamp Society, Political, and Rare Book, or what ever society. EBay said go ahead so I did. EBay took all the fun out of it, charged me more and more and left me with fewer services. I told them that it needed to change or I was going to quit…I left.
jake said
I forgot to add as a buyer I can always tell if the seller is the real deal, even with perfect feedback. 1) I read a varied assortment of the feedback, someone who is upset almost always leaves little clues in the language and 2) I look at what and who he has sold to: shills show up (a buyer who has only bought for 1 or 2 people or buyers who have little feedback <1 DING!!!) but even better you see to whom and what he has been selling to and then look to see what they were buying and from who…you get a good picture of what you are dealing with
audrey said
As a seller, I feel at a disadvantage. Now, buyers can rate me on 4 different points — communication, shipping charges, etc (I cannot remember the other 2 points). Anyway, I bend over backwards for buyers to keep my feedback excellent. Also, I’ve had a buyer never pay me and never respond to my repeated emails. So I left them negative feedback, which I think is the right thing to do,. Guess what this buyer did? They then left ME negative feedback!!! And there is nothing I can do about it. When I wrote to ebay to complain, they sais “Sorry, there’s nothing we can do.” So, I don’t think you understand the amount of work and effort that goes into selling on ebay. I live and die by my feedback and have given refunds to people when I felt they were totally in the wrong but I’m trying to keep my feedback up.
vals*stuff said
As an ebay seller and buyer I completely understand both sides of the fb extortion issue. When buying I try not to let it get to me when the seller doesn’t leave fb until after I do. Unfortunately I know that if I have a problem and need to leave a negative, I will probably get one in return (this accounts for the only neg I have received in my 1000+ fb history). When selling I use to leave fb immediately upon receiving payment, but because of a bad experience with a buyer threatening to neg me w/o cause knowing that I had no recourse, I had to reevaluate things. My policy now is that I leave fb once the item has been received in acceptable condition and my buyer does not require anything further from me. It is not contingent upon receiving fb. All along the way I try my best to keep an open line of communication to ensure equity on both ends. Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents. Val
sweets said
As an ebay seller and buyer for almost 3 years, with over 99% feedback with over 400 successful transactions, its all about honesty and trust. I completely agree with the previous comment, as I have also had a bad experience with a buyer. I also usto leave postive feedback straight away after confirmation of payment recieved. There are few out there who do take advantage of this and demand extra items (extortion) or refund without returning goods etc.
Extortion on ebay is so wrong. Recently a buyer is sending me numerous harrassing emails. I was shocked, The buyer wants and demands an additional item which has not even been mentioned in the listing. I have clearly mentioned what is up for sale. The buyer even confirmed she recieved the items. I’m not going to roll over for the sake of a positive feedback. I have been honest and will not give in to sending extra items.
I am so proud of my feedback and I worked so hard for it, but I, and no one, should ever be threatened for ’send me an extra item and I wont leave you negative feedback’. Listing pictures and desciptions are there for a reason and should always be read carefully. I always encourage potential buyers to ask me any questions if they want further information on the item, or postage, or both etc
Jordan said
If a seller refuses to leave feedback, not only will I not leave them feedback first, but I will never again purchase from that seller. I will also scrutinize the purchase MUCH more carefully. Why wouldn’t the seller leave me feedback if I paid for it on time and in full? Is there something the seller doesn’t want me to know? Has he/she done something dishonest that I might discover after receiving the item?
There is the bogus argument that they want to “make sure that the buyer is happy” with their positive feedback. We can tell them that we are happy, and by their logic, that should suffice for their feedback. But obviously that argument is a falsehood. The truth is, they want to cover themselves by being able to leave undeserved retaliatory negative feedback. The dishonest seller can state anything he/she wants, and the buyer’s only recourse is to mutually withdraw the feedback.
All buyers deserve positive feedback simply by paying for the item within a reasonable amount of time, as set by the seller. There are far more factors in determining satisfaction on behalf of the buyer.
It’s the seller who loses out in the long run. We ALL want less shady and dishonest sellers on eBay! We need to fight back by leaving no feedback for these people. Why does a buyer need feedback? There’s the argument that the seller can cancel the bid. The fact is, if that seller doesn’t sell to me, I can always find it for sale from someone else.
Show me someone who trusts no one, and I’ll show you someone you can NOT trust.